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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:15:00 -
[1]
Alright. This looks good.
But i beg you, please balance this properly. There's a very fine line between crap missiles and overpowered missiles.
Personally i dont think the Velocity or Explosion Radius values need to be changed. Rather change it so the formula used to calculate the damage done takes both into account a little more. So:
Inty + MWD + Cruise Missile = no damage
Inty + Cruise Missile = no damage
Webbed Inty + MWD + Cruise Missile = ~50ish damage
Webbed Inty + Cruise Missile = ~25ish damage.
Before you lot start whining. 50 damage to a Interceptor is still more then any longrange gun can ever do. You try shooting a Webbed Interceptor with a Tachyon and tell me what happens. Right, nothing atall.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:41:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Grey Area
Would you be happy with a high slot module that made the same reduction to turret damage?
Going by Tracking Disruptors it should be about 50% tbh. But then again things like this just aren't comparable. TDs dont half a turret ship's damage, they make it useless completely. But asking for a highslot module that makes missiles useless in the same sence as TDs do would be...overpowered.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 11:29:00 -
[3]
Grey, could you do me a favour and explain why you are trying so hard to have missiles always do damage?
I'll just explain why i think this is wrong.
No turret Battleship, doesn't matter if it has longrange or shortrange guns, can ever hit a decent Inty tackler. You can be at 150km from 20 Battleships and if you're remotely clever you wont get hit. Neither will you get hit anywhere lower, and you definatly wont get hit once youre in webrange, even if webbed. The situation changes if you get Target Painted by about 6 people, but frankly if people go through all that effort they deserve the killmail.
For example, let's say im going to tackle a Raven in a fleetbattle at 100km from me. With an Inty doing 4km/sec, that means it'll take me 20 seconds just to get in scrambling range. And thats assuming i can actually make a direct approach. If there's even one turret battleship it'll take twice as long. That means by the time i get to the Raven i was trying to tackle, i'll have taken 3-4 volleys of cruise missiles. Looking at your graphs an Inty MWDing would take about 25 damage / missile. Thats somewhere between 450 and 600 damage!
Why should a Raven do any damage atall to me, when the other (turret) Battleships can't do anything?
Obviously i see part of your point - If you simply click 'Approach' on that turret Battleship, you wont last a volley. So im asking this aswell: Is there any way to make the damage calculations dependant on Transversal Velocity instead of regular Velocity?
Thanks. 
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 12:01:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 10/11/2005 12:01:42
Originally by: Grey Area
Edit: Last word...if a 20 second closing time equates to three or four volleys of cruise...WHERE are they buying those launchers??? I'd say two or three was more accurate. And have you ever considered warping in to LESS than 100km away? IN fact, assuming you are not in deadspace...why not head AWAY from the Raven to a distance of over 150km...then turn around and "Warp to 15km" from it? You'd have the advantage of outrunning ALL his torps on the way out, then turning around and leaving them all some 100km or so behind you when you warped, and magically appearing within scramble range.
See? It's that "tactics" thing again...
If only you could actually warp to ships that way. 
And the 3-4 volleys is from 40 seconds. As i pointed out if there's even one turret battleships present you need to keep that Transversal up. And that easily doubles the time you need to get to your target.
I'm sorry, but please dont lecture me on tactics and tackling. It's what i do, day in day out. I know and use every trick in the book and some more, and it still gets you killed if you make even the tiniest misstep. And im ok with that, i am afteral in a tiny frigate.
But these new missiles will get you killed in time. Nothing i can do about getting killed or not. The way i see it its going to promote ganking even more -> "Get this guy downed quick guys or our tackler's a dead man.".
Clever little edit there:
Quote:
See? It's that "tactics" thing again...make your ship invulnerable to missiles and you don't have to THINK. Make it hurt when they hit, but leave you clever methods to avoid that situation, and it results in more variety in gameplay.
Please explain me what clever methods i have to avoid missiles or make them do no damage. Right, none.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 12:26:00 -
[5]
I completely agree if an Inty isn't moving it should get hit for some good damage. I just want a way to still tackle, by being smarter then the other guy. I dont want to tackle knowing that who dies is based purely on who has the highest skill level. (Interceptor and Navigation skills vs Missile skills)
Dunno if it can be fixed atall.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 12:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Grey Area
How about getting your team to protect you...remote shield repairers etc. And yes, to your "ganking" comment...it should ALWAYS be about "take him down before he takes US down". Seriously, if he wants to focus all that firepower on a tackler, then it means he's desperate to get away...which kind of implies your attacking force was ganking him anyway...if he thought he'd have a chance, he'd ignore the little tackler and take out a big highly damaging target.
I'm currently trying to get 100km away from my teammates. How exactly are they going to remote shield rep me? Even my Guardian can't reach out further then 30k and i think the highest is a Basilisk with 52km.
Regarding who people shoot on. In an ideal world you would be right. But in the current world people see a Frigate at 100k, see their 6-8 large guns and think 'Hey, another free killmail'. So what do they do? Right, they set 1 of their guns on the Primary target (To get on the mail) and 6 on the tackler (There's another mail that their teammates didnt get - more ranking!)
Wrayeth:
In the current system its not a problem atall. In the new system it is. Tell me how its ok that a turret battleship won't ever land a hit on a frigate but that Raven can slowly eat it away.
Incidentially, something i forgot to ask: How do BCUs affect the damage? Ie, if a missile hits my Interceptor for 10 damage, then the guy refits with 1 BCU will he then do 10 * 1.07 dmg? (BCUs being 7% dmg afaik)
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 12:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Grey Area
But didn't you just say the tacklers were immune to BS's? So why would they bother shooting at you?
A good tackler is  There's an awefull lot of people out there just clicking approach and praying they get there. Ill admit its a slightly exagerated example though. But you often have people shooting tacklers while they wait to finish locking the new primary or such cases.
Originally by: Grey Area
As to shield boosters...are you really going to be up close on your own for the WHOLE of the engagement? Couldn't you take the damage on the way in, and have a support cruiser of some kind that closes to the required distance after you have taken some damage?
Problem is that Support Cruiser would then have to travel 50km towards the enemy fleet aswell, and would needs its own Support Cruiser to keep it alive there.  Theres also the fact that BS turrets have no issue atall killing Cruisers. Thats an issue with Support Cruisers which i wont touch here though.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 15:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: j0sephine
The sad part? This is all that you need to do in order to tackle missile ship nowadays.
No prayer required, even :/
Oh, but i agree that needs to be fixed. Apparently using Transversal Velocity in missile calcs is too CPU-intensive so it wont happen though. And there aint any other way to have the tackler affect the damage by the way he approaches apart from Transversal.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.10 16:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Riley Craven
Elve: You seem to be forgetting one key aspect of missles in your postings. Missles are designed to HIT NO MATTER WHAT. This is why they have a crappier DoT.
Oh? I was under the impression that was because they could shoot targets for full damage up to 250km with skills alone. But really, you don't want to change this into a discussion of which is better. They're different, period.
And the biggest difference is that turrets are way easier to counter (Transversal, jamming, Tracking disruptors) whereas none of those work against missiles. We got smartbombs though! Yes, they really take out those 8.5km/sec missiles with a 5km range. Or Defenders, theyre fairly cool too. If it wasnt for the fact that you get 10 defenders chasing the same missile and still failing to kill it.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.11 13:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Grey Area
If anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet I use, they'll have to let me know how to post it here (it uses no macros, so you shouldn't have to worry about virii and stuff).
I'd love to see the sheet and attempt to work certain things out (Mainly damage vs different shiptypes without MWD, with MWD, webbed and webbed with MWD.)
Any chance you could upload it to www.eve-files.com or something? If not i can eve-mail you my e-mail addy.
Incidentially, i think the graphs look decent now. Done some calcs taking into account resistances and its a huge improvement over the current system.
Thanks.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.11 13:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Grey Area
Elve...the fact that you like it makes me think I've done something wrong! Did I magically make interceptors even more immune somehow?
/me goes back to check
I gave up on trying to make things perfect since i can't really work out how to define 'perfect' atm. So i'm just gonna lobby for anything that's an improvement on the current system.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.11 15:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Grey Area
Figures in brackets are the CURRENT rules...so yes, there is a BIT more pwnage...but cruise missiles SHOULD be good against cruisers.
Why?
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.11.11 16:01:00 -
[13]
Turret battleships are no good atall under 50km for longrange and under 20km for shortrange. A Webbed cruiser will die, certainly, but unwebbed the Cruiser's laughing. Why do you think HACs can take on most BS solo? Because they can't be hit unless webbed, and BS rarely bring Webs because they're usually lazy sods.
As such i have no problems atall with a webbed Cruiser dieing to a BS. But unwebbed?
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